zarahjoyce | This post is all about Angel

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This post is all about Angel

Self, note that leaves/lives are two different things gadamit. READ YOUR TAGS BEFORE POSTING SHEESH.

Plus, playing Cordelia and Illyria at the same freaking time is hard. AGH. I DID NOT THINK THIS THROUGH OKAY.

Anyway! I know I'd already thanked

notcrazy_honest for like a bajillion times, but dude - THANK YOU. I've been wanting to read After the Fall ever since I heard of its existence/publication. HOBOY. And, just in case you missed it - THANK YOU!

Man this comics made me realize I ship Illyria with Wes AND Spike and I can't decide which pairing I like more. And it's great because in the comics, both guys' relationships with Fred are the reason Ten-storey-Illyria! was brought down. I mean, in Season Five I was all about Wes/Illyria, but reading SPIKE made me ship them hard. GAH.

Anyway. It just... saddens me a bit - because I am biased and I love Cordy and I know she's dead in here and everything - but, I don't know. Fred's... significance to the team is... overplayed, I guess? I can't think of an appropriate word right now. Like, every single one of the men were relating to her most of the time. She is their weakness. She is their dream and desire. And, yes, I get that the reason this is so is because of Illyria, too, but... cue my internal flailing because I can't explain this properly. Agh. Go me.

Anyway (for the third time if you're keeping count), as I said, I am biased - so I love the Cordelia bits. Man. The breeze scenes with both Wes and Angel made me go T_____T and thank you, writer/s, because you realized that waaaay before there was Angel Investigations, there was AI with only Angel/Cordy/Wes.

And then there's Gwen.

cherrybomb25's Gwen made me love this character, and OMG. Her role in the comics broke my heart. And they even inserted Gwen/Connor which is like LOLHUHWHAT but it makes sense, dammit.

And of course, Cordy/Angel. Man my heart breaks for Angel even more after reading this. DAMN YOU WHEDON. CAN'T YOUR CHAMPIONS LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU. I'm a huge, huge, huuuuuuge C/A shipper, so seeing their moments together makes my shipper heart a-flutter, but... awww. Knowing that they can never be until she's returned to life or he dies? T_____T

And then there's GUNN. I don't know how to feel for him, I mean for the second time in his life he lives to regret something he's done. UGH.

And Lorne. LORNE. I miss you, Andy Hallett. :(

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CORDY DIES? D:

...Hi I have not seen any of this show.

fhjjkbkjlkj I'm sorry I spoiled things for you... but yes. She does T_____T I could rant and rant about it for hours man. Basically, the reason I'm playing her from Season Three is because that was the last decent season her character's in. Season Four was all about her bodyjacked by a demon, and in Season Five she only appeared in one episode - it's basically when she dies :(

HEE AFTER THE FALL. I really should read it.

I didn't read it because I got so distracted by the Angel/Buffy/Spike in Buffy season 8 so I got caught up with it

Wait. The Season 8 of Buffy... is that in the comics, too? I am very rusty when it comes to the mother show XD

Comics too.

There's also a Spike series as an offshoot of After the Fall. And there's a Faith comic

I think I've read the Spike one - but the Faith? NICE!

There are some really, really disturbing things in the Buffy comics. Have you read them? I only know of specific stuff.

Oh god...nostalgia. I loved Angel myself but my favorite character and subsequent ship died in the first season. I loooooooooveeeeeee Cordy/Doyle (in fact I have fic stowed away somewhere but I probably will cringe looking at it since it was written while I was still in high school).

My only consolation when Cordy died was the fact that my pairing could be together in the afterlife, but by that time Glenn was gone in real life so it only added to my sadness over Cordy dying in the first place (how tragic was that episode...god. That and "Hero" are hard for me to watch over again).

Aww man :( I was... never a fan of Cordy/Doyle, sadly, especially when watching the show. But after playing with a Doyle and watching S1 after that - I begin to see why they can work, too. And Glenn RIP :(

I kind of agree about Fred's overplayed-ness. Maybe it was in large part because she died but her body's still up and walking around so it's like a knife in the gut? I'm sure that's a big part of it. Imagine that gut if it were Cordelia who got hollowed out for Illyria. I expect that would be way, way worse.

OH and I actually loved the Wes/Cordelia breeze the most, because I felt like they ignored these two's friendship in the later seasons. Like, come on! They've known each other since the Buffy days, and like you said, in the beginning it was just Angel/Cordy/Wes. So after Cordy died I wanted a Wes reaction, really. So I liked the breeze.

I was actually a bit sad that in Season Three of Angel, Cordy did not even go to at least confront Wes on what he did. I mean... really? Even just, you know, to tell him stuff? Because I would have wanted something between them after she learns Wes's betrayal. Plus, yes - her death. That was why when I didn't know that YW was a standalone, I was really, really very wrongly hating on Fred. Her death and it's impact on the team lasts until the end of the series, while Cordy's...!!!

Oh yeah. I have issues with Angel OKAY.

YES. I was going to mention this actually. Everyone shunned Wes, and they had Fred going to confront him, but nothing from Cordelia? That was another thing I was not happy with. I want to believe she went to see him off-screen, just because.

Yeah, really? Cordelia was very much the Heart of the operation, as I saw her. I would've liked at least a scene of reaction from the others. What came after that episode? Smile Time? Come on.

I was expecting manly tears. There's that tiny, tiny single line of Angel's like "I already lost Cordy, I won't lose Fred" or something that's just... GUHHHH.

Nerd that I am, I checked. It's 'Why We Fight' and yeah, I really don't like that episode. To be fair, it was either the WB or Whedon or whoever ordered YW to be a standalone, but still... not even a line or two from Cordy's friends who aren't Angel?

...now I'm appreciating the Wes/Cordy breeze even more, too.

And you gotta wonder, like, was there a funeral? Did they not have time for one? I mean, she died in the hospital or whatever so there was a body. Did they notify the Buffy folks? I'm sure Fred must have called Willow, or Giles, etc. That stuff must've gone down somehow.

GAH it'll drive you crazy, all of that stuff. I must know EVERY DETAIL OF EVERYTHING EVER.

HA. Funny you mentioned the Buffy folks, because when I'm tagging Buffy or Xander I always wonder if either one of them would think about Cordy being dead in their time :P But yes, I think they know. I browsed through Wiki's season 8 arc of Buffy comics and there's this issue where Buffy's thrown back to her 16-year-old body and she sees Willow and Cordy and tells them something about one being a superwitch and the other.... being dead. So... there.

I had to check, because if ever SMILE TIME did come after You're Welcome, I will start hitting things just for the mere wrongness of the arrangement of the episodes gawd.

I remember Wiki-ing that issue yesterday, actually!

I think, if there was actual intention in how they ordered those episodes, they wanted a super happy lalala funny times episode right before being Jossed with Angst via A Hole In The World.

Amy Acker's totally a major part of why I can tolerate that episode, mostly. And why I love Illyria. It's all her.

...you have a point.

I love Amy! Heck, I watched Alias because of her! It's... just Fred that I can't stand sometimes. There was this issue before where Fred's character is a Mary Sue because she's beautiful and perfect and suddenly knows how to read CAT scans and knows about medicines and other stuff, and I can't help but agree.

She was kind of a mary-sue sometimes, wasn't she? So cute but quirky and smart and beautiful but shy and blah blah blah "Not this day. Not this girl." and "Guys I'm gonna say it anyway. Winifred. Burkle. GO."

... !!!

MY ISSUES. SEE MY ISSUES RISE TO THE SURFACE.

Part of the reason I've become so... immersed in Illyria is because a) she killed Fred, b) her character is v. v. flawed and awesome and, well. God-King-ish. What's not to love?

Total fierce God King bitch, FTW.

Fred's... significance to the team is... overplayed, I guess?

Oh, I definitely agree. I adored Fred, but I felt that they focused far too much on what happened to her and less on what happened to the others they lost (ie: Doyle and Cordy). Those two only got mentions here and there, and subtle ones at that, where it was all Fred all the time in comparison.

And of course, Cordy/Angel. Man my heart breaks for Angel even more after reading this. DAMN YOU WHEDON. CAN'T YOUR CHAMPIONS LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU. I'm a huge, huge, huuuuuuge C/A shipper, so seeing their moments together makes my shipper heart a-flutter, but... awww. Knowing that they can never be until she's returned to life or he dies? T_____T

SAME. HERE. I freakin' sobbed my heart out at the end of "You're Welcome." Way to kill my OTP, Joss. /shakes fist!

RUMI HAVE I EVER TOLD YOU HOW MUCH I LOVE YOU because if I didn't, hi, I do.

Those two only got mentions here and there, and subtle ones at that, where it was all Fred all the time in comparison.

I have Fred issues. A LOT of them. As a paranoid shipper who sees her as a threat to C/A when she first appeared, I... see her as a threat to C/A. Which in itself explains part of the hate. But it dwindled and only roared back to life when it was clear that she's the Alpha Female or whatever instead of Cordelia. Which is why I think I sadistically enjoy Illyria because... well, she killed Fred. But then, even a God-King wanting to do things because it thinks it is only doing what Fred would have wanted...

Made me want to hit. Things. AGHHH.

SAME. HERE. I freakin' sobbed my heart out at the end of "You're Welcome." Way to kill my OTP, Joss. /shakes fist!

Long shot and everything but were you a member of the Stranger Things forum, by any chance?

♥!!!!! \o/

As a paranoid shipper who sees her as a threat to C/A when she first appeared, I... see her as a threat to C/A.

I'm so glad I wasn't the only one who thought that. I was pining for C/A the whole way through and then Fred comes in and is all clinging to Angel and I wanted to hit her. Nevermind that despite Amy doing a fabulous West Texan accent, the Texan stereotypes they gave her made me want to beat my head into a wall. ~~/is texan and gets defensive of the lol stereotypes given to her state stupidkingofthehill~~ I wasn't sad when Fred died. I felt bad for Wes, but not for Fred. >>;;

Actually, I was! I used to lurk there a lot for reading fan fic purposes. XD

Aww! Damn stereotypes! /shakes fist

YES. With the clinging to Angel. I was like, "If ever her and Angel....!!! I will be so dropping the show." Thank goodness the previews and spoilers were enough to keep me watching! Well, until end of S3 anyway. I kinda floundered in the fandom for much of S4 and S5.

Oooh! I used to be an active member of that board. What a crazy random happenstance!

Same here. S4 was so very wtf-ish that I didn't even bother to set my VCR to record the show while I was at band practice. It seemed, imo, the least "jossverse" of all the seasons. I liked S5 here and there, but certain aspects/episodes ~~like that stupid werewolf girl!~~ made me want to hit things. ...actually toying with taking Angel from after "You're Welcome." >>;;

That's awesome! XDDD

Edited 2009-09-07 20:28 (UTC)

OMG NINA. I wanted to hit her if she even thought about initiating her relationship with Angel, but.... GAH. Thank goodness that never happened in the comics!

OMG. I was about to ask you that XD Dood that will be amazing and fun and I'm getting really, really excited with Angel in Taxon. And you getting him after YW! My Cordy will be like, "Okay, are you high? Because it seems to me that you're high, Angel." ♥

Angel says that being high would at least make the crazy make sense.

Cordy says that it's okay for the crazy to stay as long as he's there ♥

You are so very welcome! I'm glad you got to read it. :3

And I do think the parts with Fred are played up due to her dying in that fashion. I've heard that if Angel had gotten a season 6, they would've explored Wes' relationship with Illyria and had that develop into something else. But they didn't, so...there.

And Spike has a tendency to glomp onto the nearest odd female that catches his eye. Not to say that he doesn't still seriously feel for Buffy, but- stuck in proximity with Illyria for so long? ...yeah. And I think he felt he was protecting whatever was left of Fred/Fred's memory by keeping her out of trouble. >_>

So in other words? Yes, Fred was probably elevated to a higher 'importance' than she'd otherwise get, buuuut I think that's mostly due to the fact that her corpse is up and walking around. :P

Yep yep. I get that. As Steph had mentioned, it would be worse if what happened to Fred happened to Cordy (with Angel being in Wes's shoes, OMG the drama, why isn't there a fic on this?), but... I guess my issues stem from not liking Fred at all as a character? Much as I adore Illyria, her connections with Fred and the time dedicated to that is time better spent on... say, Connor. Or something else that isn't connected to Fred at all.

Oh man, Cordy going through that would just about outright destroy Angel, after everything else. ;___;

I really DO like Fred as a character, but I can understand not caring for her so much. I think that a lot of her connections to the group in the canon stemmed from her circumstances. She was the fifth wheel when she was first introduced, and I think a lot of the relationships that were explored in regards to her were about her finding her place in the group. Which is why she started out crushing on Angel, then dating Gunn, and finally ending up with Wesley.

...anyway, I'm getting into rambling mode and I probably shouldn't with a character you don't really care for, but ANYWAY. I do feel your pain regarding your character getting tied to one you don't like- I have to deal with Nathan on Heroes now, and I was hoping that wouldn't happen. *grumps*

But I think with Illyria, if you want to push her forward without having to deal with that so much, maybe you could focus more on the "I'm in a human body now/I'm trying to understand emotions/etc" aspect, than the Fred-memories aspect? I dunno, I just wouldn't want you to feel stuck with her or anything.

PS: The page the breeze panel was on was SO sweet aaaaa. I was glad they added that in. <3

Dood, ramble away. I'm very, very cool with rambling, don't worry ;P

Hahaha! Actually, before I app'ed Illyria at Taxonomites, I play her everywhere - with her being normal or her using Fred's body but Illyria's personality or her using Fred's body and Fred's personality. Idk; I saw it as a challenge and see for myself if I can write genuinely nice characters? It would've been great to be able to do that in taxon, too, but I wouldn't want to usurp the real Fred's place, or something. So... you know. Illyria's very multi-faceted so I hope I won't get stuck with her :)

Ooooh! This is ex-Illyria!mun from Polychromatic. Hi, there's an Angel!rant in your journal, closely connected to Illyria and Fred - and so, I shall delurk and comment at you. Ignore if so inclined. ._.

I'm so glad you got your hands on the comics, because while they aren't perfect by any means, they're a really interesting look into Illyria's characterisation. She's all over the place! XDD

I sort of see where you're coming from with Fred, especially concerning Cordy, but... I think it becomes more about humanity and less about Fred, you know? Like, in the end, it's mostly about knowing what humanity entails; and Illyria is such a poster-child for demonkind that it becomes a Really Big Issue (literally O_o!). Her most obvious clue to this would be Fred (until the big fight anyway), which is why she plays such an important part, at least in connection to Illyria.

Does that make sense? If not, I apologise. I'm just happy to be discussing this, especially with you because I know you love Illyria so much. I always thought that it was a really interesting spin on Illyria's character, the way she thinks that she has to be like Fred to be loved again. I think that has less to do with Fred - and more to do with Illyria knowing so little about people and so little about 'love' in the human sense.

- K.

Wait, wait - what do you mean ex? T____T Who am I going to troll over there now? :( :( And I shall not ignore you for you are my hero! :P

That's one of the things I loved about the comics. I was like OMG ILLYRIA everywhere. I love it!

sagjnsjkhqash, I really, really fail at explaining my point. It's like at the tip of my tongue and then poof! Gone. And it's so weird because I often play Illyria pretending to be Fred and all of a sudden I go all disliking on it in the comics just because I feel like the highlight's gone to Fred, who to Illyria becomes the picture of everything desirable in humans.

YOU CAN TROLL THE REST OF THE CREW for they are amazing. :D I dropped her because RL needs attention. Sometimes, that's just how it is, you know?

I probably failed at reading your post, no worries on that account! I do get what you're saying, I think. Fred definitely isn't the best person to 'idolize' with regards to humanity, and sometimes her character confuses me a bit with all its contradictions (she's cute and babbling one moment, bitchy and hardcore self-sufficient the next).

But I also think it might have more to do with Wesley than with Fred? In the way that Fred was loved by Wesley because of what she was and Illyria desperately wants what she had? Not, eh, necessarily Wesley's love (ew, human cooties!) but... that sense of being 'worshiped', of being perceived as incredibly important to another creature's existence? Since she's an ex-god with godly needs for worshiping and such.

But as a general thing, I think Cordelia was treated really badly in the series, compared to Fred. I mean really, Jasmine? :( Just no.

- K.

I AM ALREADY TROLLING THE ANGEL CREW. I usually troll Angel/Cordy/Wes and deeply, truly wants a Wes and an Angel to come to Taxonomites (though we do have an Angel reserved now!) But with you gone... :( :( I am deeply saddened by this, but yes. RL>>>>RP.

That's the thing with Fred, I think. There was this old, old issue before that her character is a bit of a Mary Sue, with her beauty and brains and hoboy, suddenly she knows how to read CAT scans! Then with Cordy going haywire with her character and appearance, I was like :( :( I have no left to like in Angel noooooooo. But then came Illyria and everything in the world was right again, hooray!

Oooh! I've been reading your Illyria/Fred fic (because hi, I'm a troll trolling a lot) and, well, I'll leave a more spazzy review there and - is it okay if I friend you?

I just went and checked out your cast list on Taxonomites - omg, it's amazingly big and wonderful! I can understand why you would want a Wesley, though. I've always felt so lucky about that at Poly.

I see how Fred might in some ways be kind of Mary Sue'ish. If she'd looked like Harmony, it would have been quite the picture. :P But then again, Fred IS sort of retarded, socially, isn't she? She's really intelligent when it comes to numbers and really dumb when it comes to people. So that's something at least. Cordy was much better with people.

Oooh, go ahead and friend me! I would love to know what you think about it (it needs some corrections, I'm afraid). I'll friend you back right away, if that's alright!

- K.

It is! I am so happy about it, because when I applied there I was the only one from Angel, and then one by one the others app'ed and were accepted, too. I finally caved in and applied Illyria because I was afraid that if I did without her having some sort of anchor or buffer then she will just, I don't know, begin to randomly attack people, or something. Spike being there and his being from the timeline that he is was the last nudge I needed XD

OMG YES. I am desperate for a Wes to play with :( :( As Cordy I think I've played with everyone in

dear_mun or

dear_multiverse or even

sixwordstories BUT him. Heh.

Yay! And pft, what corrections? I am serious about this. It's wonderful and raw and perfect as it it.

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